Destiny 2 Lore - The big problem with the Vex as a faction that Bungie needs to address... -

Destiny 2 Lore – The big problem with the Vex as a faction that Bungie needs to address…

My name is Byf
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Destiny 2’s Lore and Story highlights a big problem with the Vex of a Faction. They lack characters. Villains, heroes and interesting stories that surround them are some of the driving forces for a good story in any faction. The Vex of the Black Garden and the Vault of Glass are the exceptions.
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  1. The thing that make the bed different and the things that make this faction so potent as a faction is their lack of relatable emotion. The fact that the vex show no signs of human relatability makes them feel truly alien and in my opinion makes them more of threat. Compare Eramis to someone like Atraks. The Lack of humanity makes atraks Faaaar more intimidating as a foe. At LeasT in my humble opinion.

  2. While it probably isn't the direction Bungie will go with it, I've had a longstanding theory that all these human inclusions into the Vex network might create splinter factions with their influence that could result in Vex allies down the line. The human influences could present possible timelines to them where their joining hands with humanity allows them to survive, and show a version of the Flower Game where the sword and bomb logics are melded. A sort of "survival of the fittest in that the fit are those willing to work together." The complexity and diversity of the circle, using the triangle to cut away those who would threaten growth and harmony. Destiny's tricorn emblem very much resembles what a blended circle and triangle might look like, and one of the symbols of guardians, a hexagon (representing the six-person fireteams we often use), is many triangles combined into a more rounded, complex shape.

    Theoretically at least, I could see a world where even if we can't convince the vex as a whole, we might be able to convince factions who have taken in foreign influences that this iteration of the Flower Game, through the Dark and Light's direct influence in our version, is vastly different than the ones they're from, and thus the paths to victory will be different. One singular apex species isn't an option this time around just by nature of the factors at play. The species that will thrive are the ones who can utilize ALL of their available resources, which includes the Light, the Darkness, and the cooperation and faith of others.

  3. the Ad Astra thing is weird. we aren't interstellar in destiny sadly.

  4. Here's an idea below.

    Something simple, yet well known (unlike my limited knowledge of Destiny). A narrative copy of an H.P. Lovecraft novel, but in Destiny. Given how dense the lore of this (personally, atrocious) game is, changes will have to be made. Have a character, once lost in time, become an escapee in some way tangible; then, make that character seek help from the guardian investigating this threat, thus having a whole season to indulge in cosmic horror and mystery and at the end presenting a villain who denies you victory presently.

    Thoughts or criticisms?

  5. I hope after the Final shape, we get an expansion focused on the Vex. We’ve only had one expansion that put the Vex in the spotlight, and that was Curse of Osiris. All the other times that the Vex were the main antagonists were season(Undying and Splicer). I also hope we get more Vex themed armor, weapons, exotics, and cosmetics. Imagine if we had armor that looked like a Vex precursor

  6. I've been theorizing that there's a civil war going on in the Black Garden, with Asher Mir at the center of it. Asher becomes The Light Mind or something, and his Vex forces are currently waging war in the Black Garden against any that would align with the Darkness

  7. I also feel like they've been overshadowed by the other races. They are a massive threat to the universe, even the hive have a fear them for good reason.

  8. Think able it, there have been no major Vex related DLC to them to flush them out.

  9. I've always felt that the vex should have tried to gain control of siva and fail making siva gain some form of self awareness and likely become a hivemind having the same goals as the vex due to the fusion however become more efficient in their purpose. Also I just like the poetic justice of something created in the Golden age becoming one of the biggest threats to the tower when it was originally supposed to be a boon for humanity lol

  10. Take the Vex into the Lovecraft direction make them so big and incomprehensible that we as players can only deal with the fallout of it's movements

  11. I wonder if the core consciousness isn’t called “The Sovereign Mind” or something.

  12. I miss Asher, many a nights I patrolled Io, public eventing alone 😔

  13. i feel as though the vex will be just a filler enemy. Something to fill the ranks of enemies for us to fight to keep active between big bosses. They could however potentially change after we defeat the witness. That frees up their commitments to killing the Guardians with more focus

  14. Give us Vex Ultron, all problems resovled :')

  15. I like to think of the vex as the future humans and Fallen n cabal they all get harvested into the vex like humans with exos

  16. Wouldn’t it be the perfect thing for survival? Play both sides of the huge fight to ensure you’re around to some capacity once the dust settles. It’d be cool if some of the vex could fight for the traveler.

  17. I like to think they're saving the vex for post final shape

  18. What if rasputin can become the overmind for vex subminds making them a asset to the last city against the darkness

  19. I want a vex construct parallel for rasputin that is highly intelligent and possibly the controller of all

  20. Calling it right now. The non Darkness Vex are going to be forced to help us fight the Witness, as well as attack the Darkness worshipping Vex. Because that is the only scenario where they can come out on top. By helping us.

  21. I think them specifically incorporating asher into the vex is the setup to give us a direct vex ally faction like caitals cabal or the house of light. It seems this and lightfall are going to be drawing the lines of battle for the final shape, we received fallen and cabal allies in beyond light and had that expanded in witch queen, and we will revive hive and vex allies in lightfall and have that expanded in lightfall. We will also see the lines drawn with the darkness too like sol inherent

  22. After playing lightfall this sadly feels same. I don't want to wait till final shape for vex to MAYBE do something. They do nothing

  23. I hope we get a good vex story that isn't hijacked by another faction before the light and dark saga ends.

    In all of destiny for vex content we only got; the later half of the D1 campaign, curse of Osiris, season of the undying and season of the splicer (the later was hijacked by Savauthn).

    For Vex characters we only have the black heart, Atheon, Panopties, Argos, and the Undying mind. Three of the five of these characters where one off gimmicks.

  24. Behold, HUMAN, I am Demosthenes, Speaking Mind. Simulations have concluded that the enemy of the enemy is an ally. Simulations have concluded that the enemy you know is preferable to the enemy that you do not. Simulations have concluded that HUMAN can be always and only be trusted to act in their own best interest. Simulations have concluded that HUMAN will be our ally against Entity: WITNESS until the betrayal. Simulations have concluded that you will agree. — This is how I would go about it. The Vex are by far my favorite race in the whole of the Destiny mythos. The separation of consciousness and construct. The lack of individual ego. It is so beautiful, at least to me. Seriously Id write an entire Vex season on this premise for free if only Bungie would reach out and ask me to.

  25. you implying that the vex cannot be villains is plain wrong, in my opinion. some of the scariest/disturbing fictional across all media have been the ones who seem the most inhuman. the fact we cannot understand them makes them more disturbing, if Bungie writers can play into this effectively, then that would be one of the scariest villains in all of destiny lore. unfortunately, we don’t have much backstory on the vex, but the things we do have are absolutely terrifying. when in a vex controlled reality, they can literally just decide you have never existed and everyone will forget who you are and what you are. that is arguably ten times more terrifying than any hive god or fallen kell. just my opinion though.

  26. God. The Vault proves that there’s so much more to the vex then it seems. I pray we get actual conclusions. Their language, music (same thing), maps and technology. Their perspective of time and space. Man it keeps me up at night. Infinite things to think about when it comes to these guys.

  27. Personally, I don’t think villains or heroes are necessary in a faction in order to create a good storyline about them. I think a core part of what gives the Vex their identity as a faction is that alienness, and to give us an enemy with a more individual personality would retract from that. I think we could still have an excellent story if instead of the Vex themselves we focus on the effect that the Vex have on us and our allies, almost like how a Lovecraftian horror story focuses not on the monster itself but on how these incomprehensible entities effect the people who come into contact with them. The Vex have lots in common with Lovecraftian creatures in their otherness, in our difficulty in understanding truly what they are (and even the horror of the effects they have on us; being turned into a Vex through the radiolarian fluid is truly terrifying when you think about it, your mind being dragged into something truly incomprehensible.

  28. 5:20 Asher never bothered to learn are name well I don’t think anyone has to be fair

  29. We need a final solution to the vex problem

  30. I think it would be cool if some sort of sol divisive vex turned to super logic to try and unify all the other vex minds or something of the sort. One unified mind would totally make the vex more dangerous

  31. "Vex is worshipping the Witness."…wait what??

  32. Since the Traveller blasted the Witness' pyramid:
    Didn't the Traveller slightly looked like a really big Servitor? Ôo

    (It's just a brainfart, but … could the Traveller be the last Vex from the end of time? Imagine a much more evolved Vex realizing that they did the wrong thing in the past. It's trying to correct its mistakes by travelling back into the past. Sure, it comes with it own logic and plot holes, but since we seemingly know nothing about anything, you could explain everything with everything. ^^

    Why doesn't the Traveller just reprogram the current Vex? – I do bet on downwards compatibility issues, since the Traveler is just too evolved.
    Why doesn't it negotiate with the current Vex to stop them? – Vex don't negotiate.
    Why doesn't it communicate at all? – To say what? "Hi, btw. I'm Vex from the end of … hello? Anybody still there?"

  33. Really fun and interesting idea! A faction of the vex, decides in some way through their calculations, that their survival is most likely, if they ally with the tower. Vex allies… It would be cool.

    Maybe there's an encounter or battle, with cabal, taken, or whatever else it takes. But somehow, someway, some vex side with you…

    Say, Guardians are getting stomped, ghosts are being destroyed, and the battles at a tipping point, then suddenly one of the vex "teleport clouds" opens up.

    Zavala yells for a retreat, and all the guardians start running. Because with the vex incoming, everyone thinks the battle is lost.

    But then, instead of attacking you, the vex form a shield around you, and take your side in battle. Minotaurs, hydra, and other forms start pouring in, giving just the smallest push needed, and then everyoke pops their super.

    The battle is won, and your ghost is now tasked with translating vex codes to communicate, maybe you're shown simulations, etc. In some way it's communicated that this group of vex has calculated working together is better than not doing so.

    Imagine how cool it would be to have super intelligent, time traveling robots giving you access to their abilities to help stop the witness.

    But it can't be "friendly" just cooperative. A friendly vex, making jokes, showing kindness or any other thing would obviously ruin the nature of the vex… I suppose, it could almost work, if it was shown later, or beforehand, to only have been done so based on a calculated outcome, and not on "emotion" but thst might confuse people

    TLDR; I want robots that don't try to kill you, and cooperate instead, but only out of self interest.

    You can't make them too "human" because that would ruin everything that makes the vex so cool

  34. First time I disagree with Byf! Only took 489 videos…. The Vex, especially since they seem to be representative of the final shape in all of the flower games that came before, don't seem like they're meant to have heroes or villains. Because of their entirely deterministic/casual nature, they're not even properly thought of as an enemy. Heroes and villains belong in stories of person vs. person. The Vex have no meaningful personhood. They are the domain of person vs. nature. They are not meant to be defeated – they are meant to be endured and survived. They are the threshold for the wild ride the Gardener kicked off: you must be at least [this] badass to ride this ride.

    I do agree that there's probably more compelling ways that Bungie can tell their story and use them as a vs. nature antagonist. But in a story of firefighter vs. arsonist – the Vex aren't the arsonist. They're the fire.

  35. You know, I just realized that the Vex and Durandal have very similar motives

  36. Damn just now seeing this and it is still a good idea that has not happened

  37. The problem I've always seen relates to what they are. They're a quantum computer of unimaginable size. The amount of energy it would take to make just a simulated snapshot of the universe is currently incalculable. I don't see any possible way that the Vex could lose or even come remotely close to losing. When you can simulate quantum states on an absolute level, you can predict them as well. The Vex should not only be able to chart the course of every celestial object ranging from super giant stars to individual antiquarks but should be able to predict with 100% certainty, the world lines of every lifeform as well. With that knowledge, they wouldn't even need different calculations. All it would take is one to encapsulate every possible divergence. Every move we make would have been predicted with countermeasures planned for each.

    When you assume that a species can accurately simulate the universe, you might as well be declaring them the winner right there. Anything less would be plot contrivance. And if the Vex aren't 100% accurate in their predictions, why? If they can identify and correct aberrant behavior in their network, which they can, then what kind of flaw could overcome their defenses? It would have to be some kind of auto-immune virus of such a magnitude that the Vex would have no way of missing it. That's the paradox of it all. There can't be a medium threat Vex. If they're working as intended, then they will win every time. If they're compromised, then their ability to fulfil their core mandate would be in tatters, and they'd have no way of achieving their goal.

  38. The vex are old, stale, and boring. Bungie needs to get creative and give us something way better and different. New destinations, new enemies. Stop giving us the same old stuff over, and over, and over, and over.

  39. imagine if the vex was somehow joined with SIVA always thought that could be cool

  40. I might have an idea for a vex "hero" faction. So, the vex are basically just trying to run the algorithms for perfect survival of their kind. Outlive everything and bring the universe back to its original pattern. Another flower game. But what if it didn't end there? What if the vex, after growing to the extremes that they have, start destroying one another as well in their blind drive for nothing to exist but themselves? If there is nothing left to outperform except for each other, and they simply seek to constantly push above all else, one possible calculation is them eventually turning on each other, leading to self-destruction and thus completely defeating the purpose of survival. And then, you look at the way things are now, and you realize "well, we are surviving just fine right now". From these points, the most logical conclusion is to preserve the integrity of existence as it is in the moment, coexisting with all that is around them and letting things run their course as they thrive with it all. Enter the Empyrean Collective, led by Minos, the Deviant Mind. They calculated that blind survival is a logical fallacy that leads to eventual self-destruction as they will eventually blindly attempt to outlive themselves and each other once nothing else is left, and running their equation led them to believe that co-existence with the current state of the universe alongside other beings is best for them. They don't generally attack normal living beings unless attacked first. But they still see paracausality as a threat, as defying the logic of causality could throw everything off the rails, so it does happen that these vex attack guardians, but it is also not uncommon for them to form alliances with the vanguard if stronger paracausal threats than a handful of guardians are to be faced. In this case, one of these threats would be the witness.

  41. From what i've heard, we've only fought the vex equivalent of average construction workers, miners with guns.

    I'm both looking forward to and dreading to see them sending out their dedicated warriors, elite forces, generals, and highest ranked leader units…

  42. I think the vex will end up being the final shape and we will have to prove ourselves worthy to exist in their universe

  43. I love you're videos and I love how great a job you feel bungie's done on this game and the lore. That said a while not to shit on anyone at Bungie. I have always felt the vex was under utilized, as well as poorly explained. We have not seen them actually time travel , just simulations, as hard as a focus as we get on them being all powerful time lords. They are basically bungie's version of dalek. Roaming slow moving funny looking little tin cans. A thing to be feared sure. But only if you know that. To see them and not know your like 😂😂. That said even the daleks evolved. Bungie should do the same with the vex. How many give some kinda story reason for it. They have conquered how many civilization? Why not let them choose to take some of those shapes , use all those conquered civilisations and show us the vex improved versions. Faster stronger , ECT this gives Bungie both a way to explore new enemy subtypes within the vex while also building out lore. Or paying off lore that has long since dropped by finally giving us visuals of races we have only heard about. Maybe even creating a story line to where over time. We could capture some of these races devex them. In the same way that javik was the last of his kind discovered in mass effect. That opens up new alien tech, weapons, history, ect. Or I'd love to see the vex decide the final shape for them was a more beastly form, imagine vex swarms of flying vex, that inject you, or giant spider boss vex that take up the whole screen, or giant flying multi tentacled vex like in the matrix. For all the talk of the vex being so evil and alien. They look and feel anything but. I'd love to see even maybe a more love craftin cosmic horror version maybe. Something truly alien. Or have a few kinds emerge from the Vex that have humiond forms by that I mean body size and but give them darkness powers and make them robotic. Some some super advanced forms of the vex from another timeline or universe. Bungie needs to take more inspiration from, things like the Borg, from Star Trek, or the reapers from mass effect, the way Bungie explains what a vex is .. they want you to have the reaction you had the first time you seen a reaper in mass effect. That the gravity they wanna portray. But I have never felt that gravity with any vex in destiny. They are all just basically clankers from clone wars. Nothing mind blowing, visually ,or gameplay wise. And that's sad. Because there are so many avenue's they could go Down. But they refuse to move away from the slow moving thing. Imagine a vex , huminod, that moved like a guardian in pvp,

  44. Yea I really think the vex need their own big dlc sure they got seasons but theses things have a loooot more power then the red fleet or the house of solvation or even the shadow legend but the thing is they never have did more then had them as a oh yea the vex live here and here and also here but not here

  45. I’ve found the Vex’s greatest strength to be the unknown. Cosmic horror’s strength comes from that, and we see that especially in H.R. Geiger’s work, which the Vex may not be inspired by yet they definitely give off that same “do I even wanna know what this machine does?”-vibe to them.

    Now, bear in mind, I stepped outta the lore scene a while back and updates have happened in my absense, so what I’m gonna say is more than likely disproven by months/years, or is completely in crack theory territory…..BUT, from where I’m standing, the Vex don’t need named characters so much as to be treated like an environmental hazard. Much like the Darkness is THE enemy, the Vex should be THE problem.

    I’ve seen the Vex as a massive mind that split itself into smaller pieces, similar to cloning of a singular mind, and allowing those instances to interact with various elements outside of itself. This is why the instances communicate with each other, as I see it. Basically, a massive, self-talking consciousness that is experimenting. Rather than a hive mind, it’s a bunch of the same guy coming to incredible conclusions after billions of simulations and attempts.

    With that mentality, rather than the hive mind or cooperative minds approach, I think the answer is to moreso focus on the tactics of the Vex as a whole. Factions are defeated in certain quest lines, have them suddenly appear in totally different places, showing that they were never lost but learned from. The Vex changed its strategy and has decided to play dirty. It set us up with a sense of artificial security, and pulls the rug out from under us.

    Rapid expansion, sudden change to behaviors. The Vex hasn’t been that aggressive in comparison to the Eliksni, Cabal, Hive or Guardians. It knows its enemies and it’s waited for them to get chummy enough to not shoot each other as much, now comes the flood.

    A geologic time table is where the Vex stand, and if we have that mentality applied, we literally look at everything that we-the Guardians-have done…and we feel manipulated. We feel used. Despair sinks in, because the Vex has decided not to fight paracausal beings with firepower, but with individual strength being used against itself.

    The Guardians have achieved incredible things. Killing gods, forming allies, surviving Armageddon several times over…and the Vex suddenly destroys all of that progress, by sweeping the godless Hive, destroying Guardian allies to the point where there’s barely any Eliksni or Cabal left, and all that’s left is the Darkness and the Vex. These two forces aren’t allies, but the Vex is going to create false leads through which the Guardians will chase and attack the Darkness on its behalf, in their rage and despair.

    This is, again, very likely just an idgit idea created in crack theory territory, or it might not even be doable in the first place due to [insert technical stuff here]. Nonetheless, the idea of the Vex suddenly becoming a massive threat and bulldozing the solar system’s occupants until nearly every location is sporting Vex tech growing out of it, is an idea I find super fascinating. It makes the Vex seem genuinely interesting as a mechanical and alien entity. An AI wouldn’t need to kill a dying Guardian population when there are Hive, Fallen, Cabal and other humans that will do the job for it. But the Vex isn’t AI, it’s a consciousness that’s spread itself into thousands of instances that all share a singular goal with thousands of ways to achieve it. Manipulation of these little upstarts, seems rather trivial when you think about all of the trouble the Vex have faced with the other factions.

    The Hive gods were a problem for the Vex, Guardians solved that. Fallen were a nuisance, now they’re working with Guardians. Cabal were a thorn in the Vex’s side, now they’re helping Guardians or they’re keeping the Guardians occupied. Having an “all according to Keikaku”-moment for the Vex, to me, sounds really cool.

    If y’all disagree, that makes total sense since I’m just now getting back into the lore and I’m missing gods know how much information I need….yet the idea’s no less entertaining and interesting.

  46. I do hope we learn more about the Vex. The first episode after Final Shape: Echos, seems like at may involve the Vex. I can easily see us exploring the Forge Star, with the aid of Vex experts like, Osiris, Elizabeth Bray, Nmubis or Quinn, and Mithraks. Elizabeth said the portal on Eroupa provides a necessary link to the Vex. The Vex seem to have been waiting to make a real move, after the Final Shape, when odds have shifted in their favor. We may see their greater aspirations in the episode: Echos. Other enemy factions have some type of main villain to oppose us, and add more personality and motivation to a specific enemy faction. Of the Witness’ forces, the Shadow Legion has/had Calus. The Hive under the Witness have Xivu Arath and the Worm Gods. The Fallen of House Salvation have Eramis. The Taken can be wild and barbaric, but have the Witness. The Vex, have no main antagonist/villain to humanize them, or add relatable motivation to flesh them out as an enemy faction. But, I could see several characters to play the role of a mind/will strong enough to control the Vex, and act as a villain to deepen their motivations and identity: (the AI of) Clovis Bray, or Maya Sundaresh. The lore has long hinted at her, and after Lightfall we’d learned of how the Witness may have subtly corrupted and manipulated her as a pawn. Feeding her ego and ambition, feeding her obsession. Much like it did to Clovis. Though Maya could still be alive within the Vex network, as a Vex AI, both her and Clovis did gain some form of immortality. Rather than casting its pawns off the board, it seems the Witness just had both of these Golden Age scientists do its dirty work. Now, both Clovis and Maya seem to sit, isolated and locked up, collecting dust. Weather Maya or Clovis comes back into play to try and command the Vex, time will tell. But, if either of them can yak control of the Vex network, using the Veil, there’s a chance we could see a dangerous, and cunning Vex AI, leading an army of Darkness empowered Vex. One that works to assimilate all Vex to its cause, whatever it may be. Maya seems the most likely candidate than Clovis to narratively fill this role.

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